Saturn and Netlink Info - Help Needed

[XL2K5]

C# sounds alright to me, we just need to make sure the version we use is supported by Windows 98 (C# .NET isn't). My main question is, can sound alone do the job, or does it have to be electrical too? The line's tone should be ok with sound alone as long as it's the right frequency, but I don't know how exactly it works to trigger a call. I highly doubt a ringing sound is enough. Any idea?

[Warp2063]

I realized that that would be a problem before I fell asleep last night, lol. Yeah, if Wikipedia is right, it's a 90v 20Hz AC current that triggers your land line phone to "ring", 200ms on, 400ms off. (I'm guessing the length of the "on" signal isn't as important, as long as it's long enough to convince the modem that it felt the phone "ring". An external device may need to be built to do that, like the line voltage inducer. I've got friends who are studying electronics who could probably help me figure out what to do for this.

[Xranger60]

So Java's API for telephony related procedures is completely outdated? I like to program in Java myself, but I've never taken a look at that. Interesting. I'm guessing that as soon as the Saturn begins to dial, the tone sound will have to be cut off.

[Warp2063]

So Java's API for telephony related procedures is completely outdated? I like to program in Java myself, but I've never taken a look at that. Interesting. I'm guessing that as soon as the Saturn begins to dial, the tone sound will have to be cut off.

The Java stuff isn't telephony, it's actually serial communications, which you need to use to access the modem. The Java javax.comm is buggy and out of date. It's not easy to obtain a working copy of the add-on for your Java installation. Another option I've heard of is RxTx, but it's also reportedly buggy. I'd rather rely on something that people aren't claiming is buggy.

As for the tone sound... it wouldn't need to cut off immediately, but you'd probably want to cut it off before the modem finished dialing, so that it wouldn't be likely to interfere with the modem communications.

[XL2K5]

Before going to work, I tried again the PC-Saturn server, and it just doesn't work with my Netlink, I followed your steps (which were just like the Dreamcast server) but the Netlink and my PC's USB modem just didn't communicate. It's not about voltage since it works with my Dreamcast, and the Netlink gives you another message if there's no voltage on the line (if I remember right). So we might have another problem : Some Saturn modems might not work with the server. I have no idea how to explain this, but it sounds similar to European 33k Dreamcast modem that can't work with the PC-DC server. I thought too about creating a device that would simulate the ring, but such a device would really limit the amount of Netlink players who could use it to play online, since not that many people can build such a device. I'm not really good in electronics, but since the USB modem generates line voltage, do you think it's possible to make it stop sending electricity, with software, like close the modem or something, on and off? The best solution would be a software one, but yeah, for now, the device your friend might do should be fine. I'd just like to know if it's possible, then I could do some research about how to do it. Any ideas?

[Warp2063]

I can't help but wonder if something isn't set up correctly, or if it just doesn't like your USB modem. Maybe you're right, and it's just your Netlink. But there's still too many variables to claim for sure that it could only be your Netlink at fault. Unfortunately, there's no good way for someone else to test it with other equipment to narrow down the problem.

If people would be willing to pay for a finished device instead of building it themselves, someone might be willing to build a number of them and sell them to people. Someone's already doing that for one type of Saturn link device. Why not another? Depending on how difficult the solution is, it could be pretty inexpensive.

I don't know if you can make a modem change the voltage it applies to the line. I kind of doubt that would have been added as a feature, because what purpose would it serve for 99.999% of all the modem users out there? Why would they add something that could change the frequency and voltage of the line when no known program to date needs to do that? IF it's possible for a certain model of modem to change the voltage and frequency of the line, maybe a special driver could be written for it. Unfortunately, you'd have to custom-write a driver for every different model of modem that someone wanted to try to use. Personally, I think an external device would be the easiest solution.


Edit: Additional Question - Out of curiosity, does the Saturn wait through a whole phone ring, or does it pick up earlier than that?

[XL2K5]

Yes, like you I highly doubt it's possible by software only, but I'm not exactly sure how the modem picks up the phone and how dialing works, but you know, old phones used the pulse system, and since the Saturn is compatible with it, who knows?
Like, pulse works by dialing with interuption, it's all done by the hardware, so modems are supposed to support that function, and the Netlink works with it. But can it work with what we're trying to do? Can the PC-Saturn server work with it? I've got no idea honestly, but hope so. (could you try with the PC-Saturn server? just switch your Netlink to pulse)
About building a device, it could probably be done by modifying a telephone, but then again, I don't have enough knowledge in that, we'll have to learn more about how it works.
About your question, for me the Saturn always picked up the phone after I heard the first ring.
About extra testing, I could borrow my brother's Netlink (I had PlanetWeb 1 with it I think, while he got PlanetWeb 2, so his is probably a newer model), but it's unlikely I'll see him soon plus I won't be home for around 4 weeks, so if others who got the server to work with their Dreamcast could try it, it would be a big help.
Maybe it's just my USB modem, but since it works with my Dreamcast I doubt it, plus I heard about European Dreamcast modems that cannot use the server for some reasons. If other users could try the Netlink-PC server, it would help us a lot to know more about this issue.

[Warp2063]

Try using the different PlanetWeb software with your modem. See if that makes a difference.

Picking up the phone is done by reducing the resistance on the phone line. Dialing with tones is done by creating chords - each row plays one note, each column another, and when it plays the two notes at the same time, it can figure out which key you pressed. I used to play with the phone and listen to the notes that each key played. I'd just make sure to hang up before I ever dialed a full phone number.

As for the pulse dialing test - it's going to take some experimentation, and I won't really have time for the next 3 weeks. I gave it a quick couple shots, and it didn't work, but my timing might have been wrong, and I've been having some trouble with my modem due to running two OS's on the same machine, so it occasionally finds the modem again and installs it a second time... I should really reformat the machine and just install 98 on it, but as I said, I don't really have time right now. It'll have to wait until I have a couple of free hours. Maybe next Monday, the 14th or whatever.

I kind of doubt that using pulse is the solution, as all it is is another method of dialing the phone. Everything else - dial tone and ring tones - are the same, and those are the issues at hand. Finally, modifying a telephone won't really help us, as the change in line voltage is done by the switch station, not the telephone itself. The phone is designed to detect such a change; not make it. That voltage used to be used to vibrate a hammer to hit bells in older phones. We still use one of those types of phones, actually. The dial tone is also generated by the switch station. So, modifying a phone is unlikely to solve anything. On the other hand, if we were to get ahold of a business phone switch station or something.... some models generate dial tones and cause phones to ring in the same way. It would probably be pretty expensive, though.

[XL2K5]

I looked online for line simulators, but they are quite expensive, and I'm not sure if we could use it to make the Saturn go online, but with those I'm almost 100% lan-like play would be possible. Here is one example of a not too expensive one, but I'm not sure if this one can produce a ringtone : http://cgi.ebay.com/Viking-Electronics- ... 18Q2el1247 . (sorry for the long link)
I guess you're right and it's impossible to do it without some kind of hardware. Now if your friends could help you produce a cheap model, it would be awesome.

[Xranger60]

Wow, that simulator does look promising. Simple looking too. At $75, it's relatively inexpensive as well.

[Warp2063]

I *think* that device would work, but I can't be sure. Anyway, I'm trying to get ahold of the right equations I'll need to build a similar circuit. Unfortunately, all my recent attempts to get in contact with my friends have failed, but I'm still trying to get ahold of them. Until then, I'm using some old textbooks to try and figure it out on my own, but it's moving slowly. There are a lot of formulas in there that I don't think I'll need to use. Either that, or I'm just not understanding exactly how a capacitor factors into a circuit. I know what it is and how it works, but apparently I'm not seeing why it works in the circuit, and how to calculate it's output. I'm also having a hard time getting concrete numbers on phone line power ratings/standards. Plus I've got to figure out how to change the frequency of an AC line. If I can't figure out how to get the information from the internet, my father suggested that I contact some of the local phone companies to see if I can get the information straight from them. I'm not going to have time to do that for at least a week, though. More likely two.

I thought more about your Saturn-PC server problem... I wonder if your USB modem just isn't providing enough power to the Netlink modem. Maybe it's producing enough for the Saturn to detect the line, but not enough for it to actually push data through the lines reliably. The Netlink modem is an older piece of tech than the Dreamcast, and maybe it's not as sensitive as the DC's newer modem. I don't know of anyone else who has tried a USB modem with a Saturn, and that guide wasn't written for it, so I doubt anyone else has tested it. I kind of doubt that the USB modem was ever really designed to provide power to a line, anyway. The power that DOES come from it is probably just the power from the USB port powering the modem circuitry, and a little bit extra is bleeding into the line. Maybe that's enough for the DC, but not for the Saturn.

There are a lot of maybes in there, but I really do still think it's just a power issue.

[XL2K5]

This theory sounds good. I'll come back home around august 10th only, so until then I can't try it, but when I'll go back home, I'll ask for my brother's netlink which was probably produced later than mine and try it out. If it also doesn't work, I'll try to see if I can build a line voltage inducer, but I really know nothing about electronics when it comes to build things like circuity or even that voltage inducer. If you could build a device similar to the DLE-200, that can produce a ringtone, power up the line and produce a line tone, then I'm 100% sure lan-play is possible and easy to setup : just dial from one Saturn, wait from the other, no need to even swap things or press buttons. By the way, how much do you think it will cost to do the line simulator? I mean, like the materials?

[Warp2063]

I'm still working on that. I'll get back to you when I come up with a design. Until then, I have no way of producing a cost estimate. It may take a few weeks - I have EXTREMELY little time available to look for information right now. I have some time to analyze information, but extremely little time where I have access to the internet to look for it. I had less than 10 minutes today, part of which was used to check email and the rest of which was used to check this forum. It's only going to get worse over the next week and a half, and then things will be normal again.

[Warp2063]

I apologize for the delays - Sunday is the last day that I'll be as busy as I currently am. I've done some more research over the last few days. The Viking device that was shown in this thread I'm now almost entirely sure will suffice for our purposes. However, that's an older model. Personally, I'd want the revision -200B or the -300 model, but they're MUCH more expensive.

I also found a circuit that will solve the same problems (allowing LAN-style play between two systems, allowing a Saturn to dial up the computer, and allowing the computer to dial up the Saturn), and so far it's turning out to be MUCH cheaper to buy the parts and build that circuit than it is to buy the Viking unit. There is a lot more difficulty involved, especially because it's a decently complicated circuit, but it will be a lot easier to buy or build a device than it will ever be with telephony; especially because some people do not have voice-compatible modems, and triggering a "ring" on the Saturn will probably always be a challenge without a separate circuit anyway.

I'm still working on getting an estimated cost for the parts for the device, but I'm almost halfway through the parts list and I'm not even to $5 USD yet. And that's only if I'm buying the parts one at a time. If I buy parts in bulk to build several units at once, then the price per part goes down.

[XL2K5]

Good news!
Starting august 16th I'll have some free time, I will redownload Visual Studio .NET and I could start coding the program to tunnel the data on internet. But Netlink users won't have choice : they will need to voice compatible modem. We will have to discuss about how it will work out, like have a "blueprint" of the program depending on how your device will work. Like, will we establish a connection between 2 Saturns directly (make them talk together to connect) or make the computer answer (by playing a recorded connection wav) and then make the Saturn communicate together? As for the program itself, at first it would be something like you type the ip adress of the other computer then you connect and then you start connecting the Saturns. If it works well we could make some kind of matchmaking system, like you can see online players and choose with who you want to connect, which would require a central server. Anyway, good luck for your device!