A good buddy of mine recently received a model 1 Saturn for Christmas. The system appears to be in really great condition physically, but he's starting to think maybe something is up inside. He started playing Shining the Holy Ark a little while ago and is now 20 hours in and suddenly a whole bunch of weird issues are starting to happen and he's wondering if it is the Saturn or the heavily taxing game that could be messed up. The disc looks near perfect though so we both don't think that's the issue.
First up, here's what happens in-game every now and then, after he hit the 15 hour mark, or slightly thereafter.
He saw a really weird pixelated area that should have looked like the bottom picture.
Now like I said, this is one of the most taxing games on the system. There are moments where the Saturn almost explodes trying to depict all the action and lush visuals on-screen at any given time. This is evident by the amount of slowdown present in this game.
After he starts seeing weird pixelated images and texture pop-ins the game suddenly goes black and he can't move or press any buttons because nothing happens. The music continues to play out though. So basically he's just sitting there looking at a black screen and listening to the music. This freeze typically happens when the disc is trying to load in a magical attack, for example. One time it happened while he went to a village and was trying to access a shop. Basically any time the disc needs to load in either an animation or something with more detail, it freezes.
So my question to you guys is, have any of you ever experienced these sorts of things with other games or any other Saturn systems? I'm currently trying to make my way through my copy to see if I can replicate his problem, but I seriously doubt it since I never had issues years ago. That said, my Saturn is really old now and who knows, maybe the exact same issues will pop up.
Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. He's just really nervous that perhaps his Saturn wasn't as taken care of as it could have been, or perhaps it's just gotten too old and something is going on with the hardware.
Last edited by Rockman1974 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My model 1 Saturn had graphical issues with both NiGHTs and with the NetLink software. I don't know what the cause was. Buggy BIOS revision? Games depending on the newer BIOS? Buggy chips? Circuit degradation? Failing capacitors? I'm willing to bet it would have problems with more games as well, but I eventually switched to a model 2 and no longer had issues.
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Thanks for the info Warp. Do you know if there's anything he can do in the meantime before he decides whether or not to get another machine? Like is there a special cleaning he could do, or something else he can try. You think this is faulty hardware 100%?
I know nothing of the technical side of the Saturn, so I was useless in helping him out, but I know you guys know your stuff here.
If this post is too long, skip to the bottom.
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For me to make better guesses about the source of the problem, I would need more information from a battery of tests...
-Is this error reproducible? If he leaves the system off for a while, then comes back, boots it up from a save file, then comes to the same spot, does it still look like that?
-Does the same thing happen on a model 2 system with the same save file? (I'd say any other Saturn normally, but the fact that another model 1 is having similar errors to my own makes me suspect that model 1's are less reliable...)
-Does the same thing happen on a model 2 system with a different save file?
-Does the same thing happen on that specific model 1 with a different copy of the same game?
-Did he have a cheat device or Action Replay Plus inserted at any time while playing Shining the Holy Ark, even during an earlier play session of the same game?
From what you described in the first post, I'd say it's likely one of four things: a bad disc, bugs in the game, errors in the save file, or faulty/buggy hardware. The tests are designed to help figure out which of those it probably is.
If it's a bad disc (dirty or damaged) it might be possible to clean or repair it. If it's dirty, blow off any big debris, then use a small quantity of water or a commercial CD cleaner on the data side of the disc. Then use a clean, non-abrasive cloth (like a microfiber cloth you'd use on glasses) to wipe the liquid off, using a motion from the center of the disc outward (never circular or side-to-side), wipe the liquid off all the way around the disc. If there are scratches, there are various home buffing solutions. I've only ever repaired a few discs myself, and I've never been completely satisfied with the results, so I don't have a really good suggestion for this. If you know of a place nearby that has an industrial disc buffer, I might try that.
If there are bugs in the game, using a different copy might help... unless all copies of the game have the same bugs. However, if most people aren't having these errors, this likely isn't the case. I'd recommend researching online to see if other people had problems with the same game (which might be indicative of a software bug).
If there are errors in the save file, I'd delete the file and start over... maybe (in an extreme case) even go to the extreme of wiping the save RAM - easy enough to do by unplugging the system and removing the save RAM battery for a while. I'm doubting that this is the case unless his RAM battery is bad or he lost power while saving or tried to use a cheat device.
If it's faulty hardware, there's usually nothing that can be done except replacement of the system. If there are faulty capacitors on the boards, theoretically they can be replaced... but the system is highly complex. I really wouldn't recommend it, especially because the risk of permanently damaging the system is so great with those types of repairs. You can't exactly replace the chips in the system, either... the risks are even higher than those of replacing capacitors. The BIOS can't be upgraded either.
If the problem is the same as those that I was having with my model 1, I'd say it's a system problem and that there really isn't much that you can do except move to a different system. Without running more tests, I'm just guessing... and two systems really isn't enough to say that all model 1's suffer the same problems for sure. However, as I said before, my model 2 Saturn played the exact same discs as my model 1... except without the graphical errors. I don't remember any situations where the screen went blank, but there were some times that NiGHTs was nigh unplayable with all the graphical errors. The graphical errors in all my NetLink games were limited to just the NetLink screens... buttons and icons being graphically distorted... the games themselves played just fine.
My guess (at least with my model 1) is that it's either something that changed with a BIOS revision and that certain newer games aren't fully compatible with the older BIOS, or that there's some sort of hardware bug or failure.
With your buddy's Saturn, I'm thinking it's either the same issue my model 1 has (which could indicate a more widespread problem with model 1's), or a damaged copy of the game (assuming that this glitch isn't widespread for other players of the game).
Now that you've brought this to my attention, I wish I could run some tests of my own. Unfortunately, I don't own a second model 1 to test with. It might be interesting to see if that system produces similar errors with those same games. I also wish I could try Shining the Holy Ark on my own model 1, but I don't own the game, nor will I be home until late April. If you could get your buddy to try Sega Rally NetLink Edition and NiGHTs, I'd be really interested to know if he has the same issues I had.
Long story short: if it really is a system problem, there really isn't much that can be done other than replacing the system. I'd recommend a model 2. From your description of the problem, a system cleaning probably won't accomplish anything. If it IS an issue with the disc, a cleaning or resurfacing *might* help. I'd try the disc in a model 2 Saturn - see if you get the same errors in the same place - before trying to resurface the disc, though.
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Thanks for the info Warp. I've forwarded it to my friend and I'll get back to you on all these things he'll try. Like I said above, I have a model 1 Saturn that I continue to use to this very day, and I never had any issues with any of the games you've mentioned or Shining the Holy Ark. Now obviously that doesn't mean anything, as you said, there could be some issues with the original hardware that are only now starting to surface thanks to the age of the platform.
Thanks again and I'll reply once I have some more concrete info.
2, 3 - I don't currently have access to a model 2 system.
3 - Don't currently have access to a different copy of the game either.
1 - The freezes seem to be random, and theoretically, it could (although very unlikely) be possible to play the rest of the game without having another freeze. The de-pixelated items or images usually cause a freeze the moment they appear, but on 3 occasions they didn't. When they don't, simply leaving the room resets them to what they normally look like.
4 - Until recently I had an action replay plus cart plugged into my Saturn at all times. I did this mainly for imports, but have since removed it.
I'm currently going to try NiGHTS, although it is the import version, but technically that shouldn't matter."
I'll continue to update once he feed me more info. Thanks again Warp.
Rockman1974 wrote:Thanks for the info Warp. I've forwarded it to my friend and I'll get back to you on all these things he'll try. Like I said above, I have a model 1 Saturn that I continue to use to this very day, and I never had any issues with any of the games you've mentioned or Shining the Holy Ark. Now obviously that doesn't mean anything, as you said, there could be some issues with the original hardware that are only now starting to surface thanks to the age of the platform.
Thanks again and I'll reply once I have some more concrete info.
Good to know that it's not all model 1's. It's also possible that one or more faulty batches of systems went out... but I'd think that that would have been noticed more quickly. Maybe something's loose? The model 1 has at least one, if not more daughterboards. In the model 2's, they worked hard to put everything on one printed circuit board... so there's more possibilities for failure there, especially with heat or vibrational stresses... crashing would be a likely problem, but selective video failure less so... I'd normally say it was the software for such a select problem, but if it's a recurring problem like I had with NiGHTs and the NetLink software that doesn't show up on my model 2... :/
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Not sure if you saw the latest reply Warp, but he tried a few things. He also tried NiGHTS and only during the intro FMV sequence the cutscene froze and became pixelated, but the music continued. He pressed the start button which skipped the movie and since then the game has ran perfectly. He also tried Christmas NiGHTS with no recorded problems thus far.
He also wanted me to add that even though he's in his late 20's, he's a big child and his girlfriend bought him the CIB Saturn model 1 for Christmas, he shook the box to see what it was. Now unless he shook it like crazy, could it really have damaged it?
So that about confirms it. This time around he had to shut the system off as it completely froze so now we know for certain that it is indeed his system. That really sucks for him as he's only used it recently since Christmas. Poor guy, but clearly that's the problem.
He also wanted to know if the Action Replay Plus cart can actually damage your Saturn. He's looking to buy a Model 2 Saturn and doesn't want to have to worry about damaging that one. I can't see how the cart can hurt as I used to keep mine in my Saturn for years, literally, and I never had any problems, but hey you have way more knowledge on this stuff than I do.
You're right - I did miss that message. For some reason I thought your buddy lived near you, and maybe you could help him run a battery of tests.
Well, from the tests he did complete, it sounds more and more like the Saturn is simply having trouble reading games. I don't know whether the games are scratched or not, but in the event that they're not scratched and not experiencing "disc rot", then either: the laser lens is dirty, scratched or (unlikely)misaligned, the laser is failing, or the laser power needs to be recalibrated. Or possibly some combination of them. Since his Saturn seems to be working for the most part, I don't think he shook the Saturn hard enough to really damage it, or he'd probably be experiencing greater failures. Besides, it's not going to receive the same kind of G-forces simply by shaking it as it would be if it were repeatedly being slammed into a hard surface.
So... possible fixes, assuming the discs aren't at fault (but I'd still recommend testing them on other Saturns if at all possible. The discs are almost always the most likely culprit for any read errors, and usually the first thing you should check.)
-If the lens is dirty, I'd use compressed air to clean it off (although keep your distance; you don't want to freeze the lens, leave propellant chemicals on it, or push too hard on the mechanisms with the air pressure). You never want to touch the lens unless there's no other solution for cleaning it, and even then you want to be really careful; you don't want to damage any of the parts that move the laser assembly or the lens around or scratch the lens. The air is the first thing I'd try. If for some reason you HAVE to touch the lens to clean it (maybe someone got a horrible grease stain on it? Not very likely, but not impossible), you might dampen a microfiber cloth with a tiny bit of isopropyl rubbing alcohol (make sure the cloth is dry enough that you won't be dripping into the system, although if you do, it should evaporate pretty quickly - just make sure it's unplugged while you're doing any of these things), and then without using any force from your finger, gently move the damp portion of the cloth over the lens.
-If the laser's power is low, there are usually variable resistors that can be adjusted to change the amount of power going to the laser. There are guides online for this sort of thing; I've never had to do it myself. By turning up the power and strengthening the beam, the Saturn will be more likely to get clear readings on the discs (assuming it's not the discs themselves at fault). However, turning up the power runs the risk of shortening the life of the laser diode or burning it out altogether. The key, as I understand it, is very, very minute adjustments to that knob. If the Saturn is mostly okay at reading discs, it's likely that you're at almost the right power setting already. This is something I wouldn't recommend messing with unless you KNOW that it's the laser at fault.
-Until the laser actually fails, I wouldn't recommend replacing it unless you really wanted to for some reason. I have no idea if you can still find new replacement lasers for a Saturn, let alone a model 1. More likely you'd have to cannibalize the parts from another model 1.
(The reason I requested that the Action Replay be pulled was in case there was some code active that was messing up the game or his save files. Unless he had a code running or had messed up his save file previously, I didn't think it was likely the cause of the issues. Since the AR no longer seems to be a likely suspect, it should be fine for him to plug it back in if he wants to.)
Edit in response to the NiGHTs picture: It's still possible that it's the disc at fault, or the laser. This whole post still holds true. The Saturn could be freezing just because it's not getting the information it needs from the disc, due to either the disc being damaged or a problem with the laser. We still haven't ruled out other hardware problems, but they'd be harder to track down without lots more testing, and they're not extremely likely. (Although I still wonder why my model 1 has specific problems with the same games every time...) As I said in the post, the Action Replay is probably not at fault. If it did damage the system, he'd probably be seeing more frequent errors.
Had he been playing for a while when it stopped working? Maybe the system was really warm at the time? If that's the case, it could indicate that something's loose on the board, but if it's a chip, tracking it down and repairing it would be extremely difficult. Hopefully not the case.
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Edit 2: The fact that it was such a severe error during a video sequence makes me highly suspect the disc or the laser. As I said before - if it's any of the chips in the system at fault, attempting any sort of repairs to resolve that issue would probably cause even more damage to the system.
I do recommend finding out if it's dusty inside... it's always a good idea to keep your system internals clean... keeps the heat down. Air compress; don't wipe the circuit boards. And when you air compress, make sure to try to keep dust away from the laser assembly.
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
I wonder if that was a model 1 system as well...
Wikipedia mentioned incompatibility with certain games on certain Japanese Saturns, but no incompatibilities were listed for the US systems. I don't know if that's because there were none known, or because there normally WERE none.
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Thanks for all the great tips Warp. I'm sure this thread will live on forever through Google and hopefully it'll help someone else who is having problems at one point in the future.
My friend doesn't live near me or most certainly we would have tried all of these things you mentioned earlier. He's going to go out and pick up a can of compressed air and I'll walk him through the cleaning process. Hopefully that's the issue that something is obstructing the laser.
I'll get back with another reply once I hear back from him.
I wouldn't get my hopes up too high, though. If it's not the disc that's at fault (and most of the time it is), then it could be dirt, it could be the laser dying, maybe something's wrong with the drive motor... Or maybe he has some really obscure issue like I have with my Saturn. Unlike your friend, though, who says the errors don't always show up in the same place... On my model 1, they do...
I have my Saturns, I have some of my games, I have a RasPi. Gotta put all this stuff together!
Well I'll be sure to keep you posted. It would be great if this pal lived close by because we could try a whole bunch of different things like I could lend him my game, and play his on my system, etc.
